<pull-quote>Then there's Dylan<pull-quote>
<avatar-hoke><avatar-hoke><author-name>Hoke<author-name>
<p-comment>You are a professor who knows his audience. Bringing my and Wuck's beloved figures into this Montaignely essai. I'm already hooked.<p-comment>
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<avatar-wuck><avatar-wuck><author-name>Wuck<author-name>
<p-comment>why peter, murph?<p-comment>
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<avatar-murph><avatar-murph><author-name>Murph<author-name>
<p-comment>Apart from Judas, he's the only one I find myself thinking about as an actual human being.<p-comment>
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<avatar-wuck><avatar-wuck><author-name>Wuck<author-name>
<p-comment>haha. only two out the twelve even make it to the competition. love it.<p-comment>
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<avatar-hoke><avatar-hoke><author-name>Hoke<author-name>
<p-comment>Well, Peter is the only real character. Thrillingly, fully human. Judas has a famous turn in the end, after one foreshadowed moment of missing-the-point. James and John, brothers, make some bold asks for power, first retributive then political. The narrator to John’s gospel frames himself in a role of deep, quiet connection with Jesus, but no real lines. Mostly, other than Peter, the disciples are written as flat as extras in a play. I do love Phillip’s simple question in John 14, which invites Jesus’ most beautiful theological revelation of the whole Bible to me.<p-comment>
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<avatar-wuck><avatar-wuck><author-name>Wuck<author-name>
<p-comment>well, you gonna give it to us or what?<p-comment>
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<avatar-murph><avatar-murph><author-name>Murph<author-name>
<p-comment>I got this, Hoke.<p-comment>
<p-comment>Phillip: What's up with that?<p-comment>
<p-comment>Jesus: Shit is whack, bruh.<p-comment>
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<avatar-hoke><avatar-hoke><author-name>Hoke<author-name>
<p-comment>Phillip, deep into years of walking with Jesus and the disciples, impatiently asks, "So when are you going to SHOW US 'The Father'?" Jesus answers, "Phillip, how long have you been with me? . . . Don't you know that when you see me, you see the Father?" Like a Kaiser Soze reveal, but Jesus thinks it should be obvious to his friends. That the entire character of God is seen in Jesus. Friend of sinners, suffering. No "almighty" hidden in the sky. This is it, bro. Boo!<p-comment>
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<avatar-murph><avatar-murph><author-name>Murph<author-name>
<p-comment>That's very Henry James of Jesus: "Pay attention, guy."<p-comment>
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<avatar-hoke><avatar-hoke><author-name>Hoke<author-name>
<p-comment>Yeah, I relate to Phillip. Saint of Totally Missing It.<p-comment>
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<pull-quote>No one, you know, has ever fallen out of love without letting themselves<pull-quote>
<avatar-hoke><avatar-hoke><author-name>Hoke<author-name>
<p-comment>What a thesis. Parts of this could make a t-shirt, or bumper sticker. Or Wuck could make them into Instagram memes, as he's wont to do these days.<p-comment>
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<avatar-wuck><avatar-wuck><author-name>Wuck<author-name>
<p-comment>a hopeful, hokean sarcasm! i’m calling it!<p-comment>
<p-comment>falling in love vs falling out of love. i love the disruptive, disorienting implication of falling in love. falling out of love? i’m less sure that’s right. isn’t it more a hardening? the slow accumulation of disinterest? becoming immovable? such grounded qualities seem at odds with the sensation of free-fall.<p-comment>
<p-comment>love and marriage, i’m realizing through these comments, are often very much at odds. marriage is work. marriage is effort. marriage is attention. marriage pays off. love is blindsiding. love is a whirlwind, a revolution. love requires surrender. submission. perhaps marriage is health, but love is life.<p-comment>
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<avatar-murph><avatar-murph><author-name>Murph<author-name>
<p-comment>I think "falling" contains multitudes in the same way "denial" does.<p-comment>
<p-comment>It's difficult for me to see love and marriage at odds. Marriage without love would be actual torture. I almost always want to be left alone.<p-comment>
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<avatar-hoke><avatar-hoke><author-name>Hoke<author-name>
<p-comment>Yes, I'm growing in sarcasm! At least with the Instagram teasing. But not with how much I loved this quote, which is quite sincere. Big stuff we're talking about here. Re: love & marriage. I think of what so many writers have said at conferences, workshops, programs, interviews: the "blindsiding" "whirlwind" of inspiration, the muse, happens a hell of a lot more often if you're at your desk writing at 9am each day. Discipline is being there, cultivating the conditions where the magic happens. Discipline and inspiration are not at odds at all. Love without marriage (or some form of surrender and fidelity over years), love without self denial, love without discipline and covenant . . . is as short lived and immature as high school love and high school poetry. A life of sustained love and sustained creativity only happens through discipline.<p-comment>
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<avatar-wuck><avatar-wuck><author-name>Wuck<author-name>
<p-comment>a marriage void of love would be hell indeed. and i love this addition of the sustaining power of discipline. tom waits has a funny bit about his frustration with his muse when she shows up outside of her allotted hours: not now! can’t you see i’m driving!<p-comment>
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<pull-quote>uniquely human vow<pull-quote>
<avatar-wuck><avatar-wuck><author-name>Wuck<author-name>
<p-comment>i remember you mentioned the word vow when we were discussing marriage before my wedding, murph. you mentioned how it’s a unique thing, a vow. what do we vow to do in life? how many vows do me make? how many publicly?<p-comment>
<p-comment>i think this stuff a charade, for the most part. the wheel hits the road in the subtlest of ways. my real vow to sarah happened long before the wedding, and it wasn’t made deliberately. i had to discover that i'd made it, and then deny that for the purpose of the ceremony.<p-comment>
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<avatar-murph><avatar-murph><author-name>Murph<author-name>
<p-comment>It just one day dawned on you that you had pledged for life the whole of your intimacy to another person?<p-comment>
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<avatar-wuck><avatar-wuck><author-name>Wuck<author-name>
<p-comment>yes. why? did you sit down with a pencil and paper and work it out?<p-comment>
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<avatar-murph><avatar-murph><author-name>Murph<author-name>
<p-comment>I didn't need a pencil and paper, but yes.<p-comment>
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<pull-quote>than with a story<pull-quote>
<avatar-wuck><avatar-wuck><author-name>Wuck<author-name>
<p-comment>couldn’t agree more. the oldest story? the moral one, no? good vs evil.<p-comment>
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<avatar-murph><avatar-murph><author-name>Murph<author-name>
<p-comment>You don't think "good for your health" / "bad for your health" came first? I imagine listeners not taking these messages seriously enough, and so the storytellers had to magnify the stakes--not just "bad for your health" or "bad for you" but "bad."<p-comment>
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<avatar-wuck><avatar-wuck><author-name>Wuck<author-name>
<p-comment>oh for sure it did. but when the move from the instinctual to the conceptual? it’s a fascinating point in the development of consciousness to think on.<p-comment>
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<avatar-hoke><avatar-hoke><author-name>Hoke<author-name>
<p-comment>The beginnings of do’s and dont's in the earliest Hebrew law, developed in the desert by a liberated slave community, in Leviticus, are largely public-health-based. All the blood and semen and washing and who’s in and out and pots and pans and animal guts and genitals and hands touch and distancing codes. It blew my moralistic little Bible mind when I started to see this on my first adult read through the OT.<p-comment>
<p-comment>After health issues is economic stuff. Big time. How to avoid power and debt games, undoing patterns that create slaves over time, how a people makes sure no one gets fucked. Remarkable stuff. All to support your point above. <p-comment>
<p-comment>The moral archetypes in early Genesis? Those creation stories came many generations later when the Israelites were exiled in Babylon. For a couple generations they were hearing the locals' Epic of Gilgamesh, and they made their own (which is brilliant, in my opinion). Even the “evil” of the fruit not to be eaten is still a basic health warning: This will hurt you, so don’t eat that one tree. All the others? Literally: Eat eat!<p-comment>
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<pull-quote>denial as a survival mechanism. The naked truth of your inner turmoil—“self-doubt, anxiety, mounting sadness”—is so painful that you deny its existence<pull-quote>
<avatar-hoke><avatar-hoke><author-name>Hoke<author-name>
<p-comment>I do appreciate the compassionate spin you're putting on this. A good therapist would do this: bless or affirm how one's (destructive) defense mechanism has indeed protected the client from pain, in its own imperfect way. Even meth addiction, some would say.<p-comment>
<p-comment>But (and this is why a client is in therapy in the first place) I would say that the "negative" version of denial--let's call it repression--is unhealthy. Such "denial" makes individuals and society at large neurotic. <p-comment>
<p-comment>I mean, much of my work is helping folks UNDO denial: inviting guys to face all the trauma and abuse and depression and guilt that was too painful and therefore repressed. Same for mainstream folks in courts and churches: facing all the racism, addiction, violence is "too painful" to accept, so we arrest and incarcerate (ie, repress, DENY) everything we can't face.<p-comment>
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<avatar-murph><avatar-murph><author-name>Murph<author-name>
<p-comment>Yeah. I am not sticking up for all twenty of its sides, only maintaining that there as many good rolls as bad ones.<p-comment>
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<pull-quote>dazzling meaning-making<pull-quote>
<avatar-hoke><avatar-hoke><author-name>Hoke<author-name>
<p-comment>I should tell Rachel this is what I'm really up to whenever she rolls her eyes at me trying to integrate way too many issues in a conversation. "Babe, you're not catching the dazzling meaning-making?"<p-comment>
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<pull-quote>Proust's million or so words<pull-quote>
<avatar-hoke><avatar-hoke><author-name>Hoke<author-name>
<p-comment>I love that you BOTH have read all of In Search of Lost Time--Murph for doctoral studies, Wuck because what better way to read it than with a friend--and that I get to glean the best reflections here, labor free. Like having two friends who worked a vineyard and vinting room having you over for a sip in the cellar. Thanks!<p-comment>
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<avatar-wuck><avatar-wuck><author-name>Wuck<author-name>
<p-comment>i had read swann’s way a couple years prior in the same grey tryptic-like editions that you and i would later use, murph. i even got partway into within a budding grove before getting sidetracked. this is evidenced by the coloration and dog-earation of the pages. your books are crisp, because you got through them faster. each of mine are worn, and progressively less so.<p-comment>
<p-comment>i forget how exactly it came up that you were reading it, murph, but yes, i leapt at the opportunity to go through with a partner. you were done in, what? three months? it took me a year and a half. perhaps if we’d done it while i was working on orange i would have been able to keep pace. it was nice to receive encouragement from you as you blazed ahead. like someone standing at the top of a ridge assuring the straggling climbers the view is worth the climb.<p-comment>
<p-comment>remember how this wasn’t the case with infinite jest, hoke? murph, shouting down the mountain: stay there guys, i’m coming back down. bummer. i wonder whether or not i’ll ever return.<p-comment>
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<pull-quote>anticipation<pull-quote>
<avatar-murph><avatar-murph><author-name>Murph<author-name>
<p-comment>Denial’s begotten son in whom he is well pleased?<p-comment>
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<avatar-hoke><avatar-hoke><author-name>Hoke<author-name>
<p-comment>[HEART EYES emoji]<p-comment>
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<pull-quote>In the end, none of us can ensure surprise<pull-quote>
<avatar-wuck><avatar-wuck><author-name>Wuck<author-name>
<p-comment>if the end is bliss, the contentiously defeatist approach could help, no?<p-comment>
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<pull-quote>Falling out of love is a failure of denial, a failure to successfully deny the rest of the world<pull-quote>
<avatar-hoke><avatar-hoke><author-name>Hoke<author-name>
<p-comment>I wonder if the mark of a strong claim is how long it makes the reader think about it, test it on different life experiences, re-read it, think some more. I love this. Kierkegaard quotes the Epistle of James in his famous title, "Purity of heart is to will one thing." To say a full Yes--as any artist, spouse, parent, or person who is going to do well at something knows--you have to say No to many, most, other things and people. This is what is so hard for me. I spread myself thin. You've now pre-diagnosed any falling-out-of-love that may happen to me. It would be a failure of my denial. Letting a campfire go out because I said yes to fifteen other things around the campsite.<p-comment>
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<avatar-wuck><avatar-wuck><author-name>Wuck<author-name>
<p-comment>murph and i return from the river, fresh fish and water in tow. hoke! the fuck?! you had one job! hoke: oh. sorry guys, my bad. hey put that shit down come check out these ants!<p-comment>
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<avatar-hoke><avatar-hoke><author-name>Hoke<author-name>
<p-comment>That is totally me. Precisely.<p-comment>
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<pull-quote>impulse<pull-quote>
<avatar-murph><avatar-murph><author-name>Murph<author-name>
<p-comment>Geez, Wuck.<p-comment>
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<avatar-hoke><avatar-hoke><author-name>Hoke<author-name>
<p-comment>Yeah, man. It's not Deep Idea Chess. It's not Fathering/Mentor Figure Affirmation Session. It's like going to a chiropractor when you know your back isn't right. You don't defend your back, or push theirs. You lay down prostrate, humbled, then celebrate the pops, cracks, and applied pressure when something bent in you is addressed and possibly loosened, with informed care.<p-comment>
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<avatar-wuck><avatar-wuck><author-name>Wuck<author-name>
<p-comment>ok ok. this is helpful. is this what you’re insinuating with “geez, wuck,” murph?<p-comment>
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<avatar-murph><avatar-murph><author-name>Murph<author-name>
<p-comment>Yes, it is.<p-comment>
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<pull-quote>impulse<pull-quote>
<avatar-murph><avatar-murph><author-name>Murph<author-name>
<p-comment>Geez, Wuck.<p-comment>
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<avatar-hoke><avatar-hoke><author-name>Hoke<author-name>
<p-comment>Yeah, man. It's not Deep Idea Chess. It's not Fathering/Mentor Figure Affirmation Session. It's like going to a chiropractor when you know your back isn't right. You don't defend your back, or push theirs. You lay down prostrate, humbled, then celebrate the pops, cracks, and applied pressure when something bent in you is addressed and possibly loosened, with informed care.<p-comment>
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<avatar-wuck><avatar-wuck><author-name>Wuck<author-name>
<p-comment>ok ok. this is helpful. is this what you’re insinuating with “geez, wuck,” murph?<p-comment>
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<avatar-murph><avatar-murph><author-name>Murph<author-name>
<p-comment>Yes, it is.<p-comment>
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<pull-quote>impulse<pull-quote>
<avatar-murph><avatar-murph><author-name>Murph<author-name>
<p-comment>Geez, Wuck.<p-comment>
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<avatar-hoke><avatar-hoke><author-name>Hoke<author-name>
<p-comment>Yeah, man. It's not Deep Idea Chess. It's not Fathering/Mentor Figure Affirmation Session. It's like going to a chiropractor when you know your back isn't right. You don't defend your back, or push theirs. You lay down prostrate, humbled, then celebrate the pops, cracks, and applied pressure when something bent in you is addressed and possibly loosened, with informed care.<p-comment>
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<avatar-wuck><avatar-wuck><author-name>Wuck<author-name>
<p-comment>ok ok. this is helpful. is this what you’re insinuating with “geez, wuck,” murph?<p-comment>
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<avatar-murph><avatar-murph><author-name>Murph<author-name>
<p-comment>Yes, it is.<p-comment>
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<pull-quote>first appears fifty years later, in 1576<pull-quote>
<avatar-hoke><avatar-hoke><author-name>Hoke<author-name>
<p-comment>Tell me you have a paid subscription to the OED.<p-comment>
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<avatar-wuck><avatar-wuck><author-name>Wuck<author-name>
<p-comment>or got tom to get him a bootleg copy.<p-comment>
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<avatar-murph><avatar-murph><author-name>Murph<author-name>
<p-comment>I retain full library access from CGU.<p-comment>
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